March 16, 2016

Japanese Submarine Evolution "stronger, longer, more silent " and Operational Life

Above is the last page of the document History of submarine in our country - stronger, longer, more silent that S is referring to. Above is a Harushio-class submarine (left), second Oyashio-class (center) and Soryu-class (right).  
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On 15/3/16 9:27PM  S provided a Summary here (Pete has further translated and provided the links  below) of History of submarine in our country - stronger, longer,more silent :

[dated?]

[You will find the document is 15 pages of overheads (with photos, text, tables and diagrams) all in Japanese. If you right-click mouse - select "Translate to English" much is translated. Unfortunately the text seems to be lost if converted to .jpg pictures] 

Author: Toru Sato (Department of Naval Systems Development, Technical Research and Development Institute, Japanese Ministry of Defense [MOD]: 

Feature: The history of submarine built after WWII in our country will be reviewed from a technical standpoint.

Abstract: [the Japanese Navy] JMSDF has built about 50 submarines from the first Oyashio-class [a one submarine “class” SS-511, Laid down December 1957] which was [Japan’s first post war domestically built] submarine to the latest Soryu-class.

In hull form, from 195[7?] to1966, the:
-  first Oyashio-class [Laid down December 1957],
-  Hayashio-class [Laid down 1960, small, 59m long
-  Oshio-class [Laid down 1963], 
were underwater cruising-oriented submarines based on the pre WWII hull form.

 Graph similar to page 3 of the Japanese document. The steady evolution of Japan's submarines. Long history by class, elsewhere in Submarine Matters here. (Graph courtesy Australia's news-com-au)  
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From 1967, Uzushio-class, Yushio-class and Harushio-class were continuously built with tear drop shaped hulls, which were underwater speed-oriented. From 1993 to present (2012), [the second Oyashio-class and Soryu-class] with cigar shaped hulls were built. A partial single hull structure was adopted.

[Over the 1957 to 2012 period] various technical evolutions have been experienced, i.e:

- increase in submerged depth by improvement of steel welding technology and others;
- improvement in battery performance;
- extension of submerged period by using  AIP and other measures;
- equipment of [towed array sonar system] TASS and flank array sonar;
- [combat system improvements in terms of] improvement of sonar search and detection attack abilities by increase in processing speed;
- reduction of underwater radiation noise by reduction of equipments and adoption of damping steel alloy and material.

Our submarines have continuously evolved depending on the operation aspects, considering request of operators [Japanese Navy customer] and taking in latest technology. The direction of this evolution can be expressed as “stronger”, “longer” and “more silent”.

On that day, from a technical standpoint, all submarines of JMSDF will be visually introduced. [This is expressing the technical evolution of Japanese Navy submarines in visual terms].
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[On the Relatively Short Operational Life of Japanese Submarines]

S comments:

“Many people think short commission period of Japanese submarine is due to its short life time caused by degradation, fatigue, corrosion, and so on. But they are perfectly wrong, the short commission period results from require for continuous evolution. 

From standpoint of material science and design, designing and building of the weak structure which regularly degrades within defined period are much more difficult than those of the strong structure. In the former structure, perfect control and insight of key elements including prediction of future warfare, which are extremely difficult, is needed. 

As Japan unfortunately has not such high technology and insight, it can only build the strong structure.”

S (with some further translation and links by Pete)

15 comments:

MHalblaub said...

Dear S,
the graph is interesting and leads to on conclusion:
Japanese submarines grew bigger and bigger.

For me as an owner of a still working Walkman Japan is the master of miniaturization. So why do Japanese submarines grew on displacement?

Here a rather old story about torpedoes:
http://ericpalmerblog.blogspot.de/2016/03/required-reading.html?m=1

First mentioned on Aviationweek this week.

Peter Coates said...

Hi MHalblaub

Thanks for http://ericpalmerblog.blogspot.de/2016/03/required-reading.html?m=1 - that is slightly over 4,000 words.

Could ya give a short summary?

Why subs are getting bigger? Maybe bigger more capable combat systems, with more analysts sitting at ever increasing numbers of workstations. Then you need more cooks, bunks and other facilities for all those analysts. Also young submariners won't be recruited if they have to work in greasy, oily stuffy old subs.

Also companies make more money with ever larger submarine solutions.

Regards

Pete

MHalblaub said...

Dear Pete,
Here a summary
http://m.aviationweek.com/defense/opinion-timeless-insight-why-military-programs-go-wrong

Peter Coates said...

Hi MHalblaub [16/3/16 10:07 PM]

While resisting half signing up to a Aviation Week subscription I'll be helpful to readers by identifying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_(short_story) with the Summary:

""Superiority" is a science fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke, first published in 1951.

It depicts an arms race, and shows how the side which is more technologically advanced can be defeated, despite its apparent superiority, because of its own organizational flaws and its willingness to discard old technology without having fully perfected the new.

Meanwhile, the enemy steadily built up a far larger arsenal of weapons that while more primitive were also more reliable. The story was at one point required reading for an industrial design course at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology."

Sounds like how the T-34 (especially the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34#T-34-85 ) beat the more complex, troublesome, Panthers and Tigers.

Regards

Pete

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete and MHalblaub(16/3/16 8:38 PM)
 
According to the said report, increase in displacement (weight) is due to development of technology as follows:

Improvement of combat system
Increase in torpedo number, improvement of turning performance -- > equipment with large sonar, improvement of motion performance -- > equipment of towing sonar & Harpoon launching system, complete noise reduction --- > equipment with flank array sonar, improvement of stealth

Extension of submerged period
Increase in capacity of LABs --- >equipment with AIP

Increased silence

Torpedo tube using hydro pressure, rudder system using hydraulic pressure, single-screw propeller --- > equipment with Masker, reduction of magnetic sound of main motor --- >multi-skewed propeller, static power supply, double anti-vibration --- > underwater sound absorber, inclined outer hull of bridge --- > floating deck in AIP section, rectification of rudder tip flow, bridge fillet

Regards
S

Peter Coates said...

Thanks S

Yes they are convincing reasons.

I'm glad I indicated "more capable combat systems" - with sonar sensors being part of combat systems.

And even German postwar subs greatly increased in size (from the Type 205 to the much larger 212) for one of the reasons you give "Increase in capacity of LABs --- >equipment with AIP"

Regards

Pete

Nicky K.D Chaleunphone said...

So what dose Japan do with the subs that have been used up

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

“Stronger, longer, more silent” for submarine, and “more exactly” for The Diplomat.

New Soryu-class, Jinryu (MHI, 54.6billion yen) commissioned on Mar 7th. Now number of submarine fleet is 17, and MOD officially announced that Jinryu equipped with LABs [1] not LIBs.

Recently, “The Diplomat” said that Hakuryu outfitted with a new lithium-ion battery propulsion system [2] and “ it is unclear whether the JS Jinryu will also be equipped with advanced lithium-ion batteries [3]” . These descriptions did not reflect the fact.

[1]http://www.mod.go.jp/e/d_budget/pdf/270414.pdf Defense Programs and Budget of Japan Over of FY2015 Budget” by MoD, page4,
“Construction of a submarine (1 ship: ¥64.3 billion). Construct the 11th Soryu-class submarine (2,900t class) to increase the number of submarines from the current 16 to 22 ships. Improve underwater endurance, etc. compared with the existing Soryu-class submarines by mounting lithium-ion batteries.”
[2]http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/japans-deadliest-sub-to-join-australias-navy-in-military-drill/ (Mar/11/3016 by Franz-Stefan Gady who is associate editor with The Diplomat)
[3]http://thediplomat.com/2016/03/japan-commissions-new-stealth-atttack-submarine/ (Mar/16/3016 by Franz-Stefan Gady)

Regards
S

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

Training submarine Oyashio visiting the Philippines and Vietnam is widely reported with Soryu picture. It might be simple mistake, but, meaning is very different. Picture of Oyashio means friend visiting, and, picture of Soryu may result in misunderstanding as warning.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/31117604/japan-submarine-to-visit-philippines-other-ships-to-vietnam/ (Yahoo News via AFP)

Regards
S

Peter Coates said...

Hi S [at 17/3/16 1:22 PM]

https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/31117604/japan-submarine-to-visit-philippines-other-ships-to-vietnam/ is confusing. That article talks of "Japanese submarine Oyashio" but I see the photo is a Soryu (particularly where the curved front of the sail meets the hull).

It would be better for Japanese submarine security if older Oyashio visits Vietnam. The Russian Navy probably has good access to Cam Ranh Bay. Russia, after all, helped to build Vietnam's Kilo submarine base at Cam Ranh Bay.

Regards

Pete

Peter Coates said...

Hi Nicky K.D Chaleunphone

S would know more. But I think 2 or 3 of each retiring class (classes are about 10) of subs become Training Subs for several years. Their deep diving ability may be limited.

More quietly retiring or Training subs may become new technology testbeds - perhaps for Lithium-ion Batteries and the new Snorkel system.

Also relevant is Japan is probably not retiring its Oyashios as quickly as normal because it wants to achieve the expanded fleet (was 16) now wants 22 fairly quickly (in the next 5 to 7 years or so).

Regards

Pete

Sanchun Yaton said...

Hi Pete,
Oh dear... It's becoming spicy! I like it like that. I thought only the Germans could be that agressive, but I was wrong obviously...
“It's a recipe for disaster and the Americans are aware of it. We know that the technology is the same one used in cars and in cars they explode," said Marie-Pierre De Bailliencourt, DCNS deputy chief executive, about the Lithium-ion batteries proposed on the Japanese Soryu offer in the frame of the Australian SEA1000 submarine program. (AAP, 2016/03/18)

Anonymous said...

Hi Pete

Science & technology are based on the evidence. If we do not understand this key concept, our behavior or product might provide disastrous results. It is most important that president and deputy chief executive of DCNS do not offer any evidence and that they do not understand the key concept of Science & technology. This is evidence which heads of DCNS provided.

Where DCNS gets the information on LIBs of J-subs which is top secret?
How can DCNS judge risk of LIBs of J-subs without data?
How can DCNS judge that its LIBs without any demonstrated performance are safer than LIBs of J-subs which have been tested for years?
Is Short fin Barracuda balanced? Does MESMA work well? Is the Sortfinn Barracuda safe? Anything is yet demonstrated.
Is DCNS reliable? The president and deputy chief executive judge and speak out without evidence.

Regards
S

Anonymous said...

Sanchun Yaton,

I served in the US Navy 1965 - 1968 1/2 on US naval destroyers in anti submarine warfare in the Mediterranean and in the Pacific supporting the war in Viet-Nam. Your answer is yes and NO. In terms of technology, for the Japs and Yanks, problems are to be solved. The US has lost two nuclear submarines due to bad "builds" and bad quality control. We learn from our mistakes. Possibly, that is why we can argue we are the best in the world. You don't think airlines still don't want high performing, light weight batteries for modern jets ? Have the "brilliant" French given up so soon on Lithium Ion technology ? Car manufacturers have not.

The Japanese are re engineering Li-Ion batteries for submarine use, starting from zero. Have you never used a Yuasa motorcycle battery in a motorcycle ? They are not about to knowing, cause the loss any of their expensive submarines. Now, the Chinese will try the same thing, SEPARATELY. How will they do ? Who knows ? Recently the Chinese managed to run a powerful diesel engine on the surface with a full submarine crew and shipyard observers onboard with the hull system and hatches shut until they pulled a vacuum in the hull and killed everyone on board. They found the submarine drifting. I can't remember ANY case of that happening with a WWII Western diesel submarine, ever.

From my perspective, the US has never fought against such a smart and capable enemy in the Pacific. We had to go after the Japanese island after island until we reached the edges of Japan. I would fear them more than the Chinese. The Japanese know what they are doing.

Peter Coates said...

Hi Sanchun Yaton

Thanks for your comments. I think, since 1945, Japan's low spending on defense and its pacifist outlook means it is not a threat to anyone. China, Russia and, of course, North Korea, are threatening players.

As coincidence would have it I'm writing an article on non-Japanese submarine LIBs for publishing tomorrow. I'll place a copy of your comments under the article - as yours are very relevant.

Regards

Pete